The Pragmatician

"Easy" is relative. Yes, a secular person can pick up anything to eat without a second thought (and I do admit to missing the convenience of that). But meaning in life is much harder to find without Torah - as in life, everything has its plusses and minuses, and honestly, I happily give up non-kosher chocolate for a more meaningful life.
 

Hard question to answer, good food for thought haha.
 

Rav Dessler has a whole treatment on this topic. It involves a sliding scale of free will.

I had similar situation when several vaadim started recommending only certain products at Starbucks. Needless to say my wife and I were not happy. As a BT since I was 16 (now 35) this "Starbucks regulation" actually was a test of my own free will and how much does one follow a rav or a vaad (especially when you REALLY want to drink something.
 

Had I been born in a secular family with a secular upbringing I could’ve bought the chocolate, any chocolate in fact without a second thought.
In fact there would be many things I would be able to do, and many I wouldn’t have to.

why would you be "able" to do certain things which you are not "able" to do now?
religous or not the same torah applies to both
its more that you would not care to do forbidden things and now you do

as far as if i would be able to become a baal teshuva?
i am sure that no!!!!!!
 

Shoshana-Perhaps there’s a reason everyone is born where they are, I don’t think I’d have the strength to climb the spiritual ladder when coming from nowhere, while you and many like you did.

Socialworker-food, for thought, it better have a good hersher after this:)


Neil-I didn’t you were a BT, I’d never guess from your blog.
So were you able to fight temptation on the starbucks issue?

YY-Not true, if you’re ignorant about it, than you’re ABLE to do it.
Even if you are aware, but you don’t believe in it then there’s nothing stopping you.
No one was around at the gas station when I wanted to taste the chocolate…
The Torah definitely applies to both, hence the question if I and you and other FFb’s would’ve had the courage to leave all that ‘ability’ behind and become frum.
Are you now?
 

interesting post! you have great posts! You always make me think. Ok lets see.... This reminds me that i always ask why baal teshivas become baal teshuvas. It is so difficult to be a good frum jew and if I was born in a non frum home would I decide to be frum? Unfortuantly I think not. It is in a way a ticket to be nonfrum. dont you think?
 

Yeah, I'm a BT. I've actually either stated it in a post or a comment on the blog. Not sure if I shoul take that as a compliment or not? :)
 

Yeah, we caved in to a "higher authority".
 

I have asked that question many times. I don’t think that it is a question one can get an honest answer. If I have to guess I would say no.
 

Well you know what I am thinking, my smoothies, of course it has the best hechsher, made at home by swfm.
 

prag it happens. people make tough life-choices...life has to be about growth. think about recovered alcoholics or narcotics abusers...how much tougher it must be to resist for them. chazak u'varuch for not eating the chocolate! if only Jews all over could remember that the treif to their soul is comprable to the harm done by just one drink to an alcoholic! correct?

also, the coca-cola in spain is all kosher to my knowledge. the kollel in madrid has it friday night for shabbos dinner... i'm pretty sure i saw it at the shuls, too - but don't quote me on it. :)
 

Chaverah-actually most FFB readers admit that there’s a chance they would not.
So to me it’s not a ticket to be non-frum, just a indication of how bashert it is that we born into FFB families.
Thank you for the compliment :)

Neil-definitely as a compliment!
My sincerest admiration for this.

Also a Chussid-we never know the ‘what if’ answers in life but we may ponder them.


Social-Sounds delicious!

Notahottie-that’s the beauty of being FFb, we can complain about Halachos we find difficult, after all we didn’t ‘choose’ to have to keep them.
I don’t know why you have to feel stupid with hair covering? Nowadays it’s quite possible to have shaitlers that look ten times better than one’s natural hair…

Yakki-Hi,
Excellent comparison, if treif was advertised as negatively as smoking is, it would definitely help.
About the coke I heard from via via, so I wasn’t sure.
Thanks for stopping by.
 

Good question. I'm not sure what I would do.
 

About Coke... Call any Vaad HaKashrus in almost any city and the odds are they'll say no problem. For the best answer I suggest calling the Atlanta Kashrus Commission.
 

That is a good question. I have thought about it and I came to the conclusion that if I was secular I highly doubt that I would be able to give up an 'easy' lifestyle for one with constant restrictions. I then Thank G-d that I was brought up with those restrictions so that I don't have to face trying to learn them later in life and temptations like non-kosher food are easy not to give in to. Keeping Halacha/being religioius is not the easiest thing to do but Torah and Mitzvot give life meaning so I am thankful for it, however challenging.
 

Lvnsm-It’s a hard question, perhaps it’s better not to think it over too much.

Neil-Thanks for the suggestion.

Sarah-It really does seem bashert
 

Everyone has their own level of free will.
I like to think that I have chosen this life rather than just gone along with it bc I am a FFB. So to answer the question I think had I had access to the knowledge I may well have become a BT.

Your life is your choice. You choose to be what you are and what you do whether subconciously going along with your upbringing or conciously examining it and choosing your path.
 

Well, I understand and admire your committment, and know it is not easy.

Life is all about trade-offs, I suppose, and you are hearing this from a woman who does not observe the laws of kashrut.

Besides, you can find good kosher chocolate, I know from Israel. I will be sure to get some while we are there.

Be well.
 

Exsemgirl-I don’t agree that we get so much choice in life, one proof being the fact that many bloggers believe they would not have become BT’s.
On the other hand I can perfectly imagine someone looking for MORE in life, despite having it comparatively easy.

Barbara-I know that in your own way you are religious too, and you sure wear your Jewishness with pride.
Make sure to eat a lot I Israel, there are so many delicacies there!
Also remember to drink plenty.
 

Wow.. that is a test of strength. It's funny.. I've had that many times, though for simpler things, like Hershey's, cuz I eat chalav yisrael only ... well, sometimes I cheat- but only when it's far far away and there's nothing else to eat.
My father said I could so... HA!:)

But seriously speaking, I think it would have been a real challenge for me to become a BT had i been brought up secular.. but however, knowing that I have a thinking and spiritual side to me, that I enjoy some spirituality (when in the mood) I probably would have ended up becoming a BT, one way or another.
 

courage? spirit?
its not that. its foresight and realization that there is a bigger picture: What does the world revolve around? What I want, or what G-d wants? And am I here to make ME happy, or can I do good to make a difference in this world?

take it from a "BT". It aint easy, but it sure is the better life.

some "ffb's" say "oh if only I werent frum, BTs have it so much easier (cuz theyre more into it and gave added excitement in general)." But ya know something, people who are born into religious homes are so lucky. They have that kabalat ol in their blood and in their minds from when they were in the womb. Some of us arent as lucky, but we try to make up for it every day.

What do you think?
 

i think most of you are underestimating yourselves.
i have a feeling that a lot of ffb's picture the secular world like a pepsi commercial, with beach balls flying, music blasting, water splashing.. thats not life!
its not a big party that you one day give up in exchange for a depressing life full of restrictions.

sure, sometimes its hard having to make choices like whether to eat that chocolate (or much worse) and a secular person wouldnt need to, but secular poele dont just run around wild allowing themselves whatever they feel like with no guilt or remorse.. they just follow a different set of rules - rules imposed by society. unfortunately these rules are not based in a system that one beleives to be holy and so the choices feel meaningless.. and thats where becomnig a BT comes in.
its about making your life more meaningful..

so.. if an ffb thinks that he wouldnt chose a torah life, its only because this person belieces that he would choose to live a non meaningful existence.. not because they would choose to live a "care free" life.

care free gets old fast..not only that, but there are serious repurcussions to that kind of lifestyle - and thats something an ffb has never experienced (notahottie, tznius can be difficult.. but the consequences of not having it are so much worse (lowered self esteem, sexual abuse, mysogeny..)

the main advantage bt's have over ffb's is that we KNOW whats out there, and just like the pepsi commercial, we know its an illusion, its a hollywood set, and we can more easily see past the allure..

like Also a chussid said, i dont think its possible to really know that answer until youve been in the situation, and hopefully none of you will choose to learn the hard way..

(sorry my comment is so long but i have SO much to say about this :)
 

In order to know whether you'd have become at BT you have to know more than your current personality - you need to know what kind of family you'd have been born into (supportive, critical, demanding, suffocating), what your surrounding environment would have been like, your school, your peers, your life experiences etc.

in regards to the chocolate - well..yeah, in a secular family you might have had it "easier"...in a chasidic family, you'd have had more rules and restrictions

so - to be totally pragmatic (and i know you like that) - where are you prepared to go from where you'd standing right now?
 

In regard to free will: I think Rav Dessler describes the sliding scale as one that changes from moment to moment based on the previous moment's choice.

BT vs. FFB? One vital built in asset FFBs have is mesorah. Currently I live in a city with a large BT (myself & my wife included) and convert population. It is beautiful to see so many people excited about Yiddishkeit, but so many of us are struggling with defining our hashkafos and minhagim.

Also, the BT effect lasts only so long. After it's over responibility to serve Hashem is still there. For example, Shachris used to be an occasional, yet powerful connection with Hashem. Today, while earning a living, I daven every morning, but often my words are uttered faster than a radio ad disclaier.
 

Thats really a difficult question...
The majority of non frum jews are never given a choice..are never exposed to yiddishkeit..in a manner that would allow them to chose that lifestyle.
Ultimately the thirst for meaning in life..is alot stronger than chocolate..if that translates to becoming frum..is a question of circumstances...oftentimes
 

Notahotie-I understand better now.
In private sphere you can still enjoy it and feel good about it.

Workingema-Well well you admit to cheating, said my wife to me last year in Spain.
I usually don’t eat chalav akum either, but on rare occasions I’ll make an exception.
The problem with the chocolate in question was not one of chalav akum, there was no OU or anything on it that indicated it might be kosher.
Let’s hope we’ll see this more spiritual side of you in upcoming posts..

Yoniqua-Great comment, thank you.
I agree that foresight and realization come first, but once you’ve got it, doesn’t it require a lot of courage to take the next step and start learning and practicing?
 

Mookie-No need to apologize I highly appreciate intelligent comments like yours.
You make a few very good pints.
Until now I as leaning towards probably not, but now you’ve made me think further and perhaps the lack of any real goal would’ve pushed me to look for something more real.
Thanks
Do you work in Kiruv?

Mata-
You’re right about that, it’s almost impossible to know what would have happened if…
However I did intend to ask from a purely individual point of view, outside factors like family out of the equation.

I do like being pragmatic, but I’m not sure what you’re asking?

Pes-hi and welcome to my blog.
That’s the beauty of BT,’s everything is fresh and exciting, it’s only natural that this fades after a while.
About the minhagim, if I’m not mistaken many BT’s can trace not too distant ancestors or close relative who are FFb’s or been frum for a long time, how about taking over their minhagim?
Thanks for stopping by.

David-True, but it’s not so that everyone exposed to authentic Judaism immediately joins it’s ranks.
It’s very individual.
Chocolate is the least of the freedoms enjoyed…
 

I come from ultra-Orthodox roots (grandparents) and many of my 1st cousins are frum. I was raised Conservative (I guess what frum people would refer to as "secular").

Ther frum way of life (and I mean no disrespect to you or anyone who is frum) has no allure for me. I have deep meaning in my life. And I am happy and very comfortable with my obervance level of our religion.

I am active at my shul and active in the Jewish community. I have been to Israel. But I will never be frum.
 

I always wondered how I would react to a similar question.. that is, if I found out today that I was adopted and was really not jewish, that means they would present me with the question do you want to be a Jew? I would have the opportunity to say yes and remain Jewish and the opportunity to say no and become a gentile.
What would I choose? I do not know. I always joke that I would choose to say no, because if I am a goy, why be jewish. But it is easy to say that theoretically and when I think about it I really do not know, either way, which I would choose.
 

stacey, i think that meaning in life is not a black and white thing, i think its on a continuum, and its subjective. most poele who claim that a frum lifestyle brought more meangnig to their lives are those who came from a background which obviously they didnt feel provided that for them.. but thats a personal observation not a blanket statement about humanity.

i will say one thing tho, to someone who grew up beleiving tht humans are simply a result of some fluke chance and are the descendants of apes and not created with a purpose, i dont understand what existential meaning life can have.. i dont think most poele beleive that purely, most poeple have soem kind of spiritual meaning to their lives.. but for those who really live by that, i have a hard time understanding what they find meaningful

(and just to be clear i am by no means implying that you are one of these poeple, it sounds like youre life has meaning, im talknig about one extreme of the continuum that i have a hard time relating to and that led me to question my non-frum life)
 

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Mookie,

I think many people (who get more religious) need its structure and stringency to fulfill unmet needs in their lives, be those spiritual or emotional.

I was raised as a practicing Jew, just not an Orthodox one. I love being Jewish and find deep meaning and beauty in our Torah, heritage and traditions.

However, I have never felt a longing to be more religious nor have I felt that I am lacking any purpose or meaning in my life. I have been blessed with a rich and full life.

I have had much exposure to the frum way of life and it is not for me. People have to find their path and practice Judaism in the way that is most meaningful for them. One size does not fit all.

But what is right for me is not right for every Jew. That is the beauty of our religion. There are various denominations...Orthodox, Conservative, Reconstructionist and Reform. There is a home for all of here.
 

-

I feel that besides Torah and mitzvos being what our neshama needs, when we have the oppertunity in front of us to earn a lot in our spiritual bank account in the world to come by learning and practicing, then we should jump at the oppertunity. Just like a person who has a chance to earn a lot of money if they take the job, so to we have a chance to earn a lot if we choose to do it.
 

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Some of us are more concerned with the world we live in now -- how we can make it better, what we can give back to humanity -- than we are about the "world to come."
 

spiritual bank account??? so not my thing..

youre right stacey, we each to find our path..
 

Interesting post indeed. As far as myself, there is no question that had I been born and raised non frum, I would never become religious. I have too many issues as it is with the "frum" community, and only stay frum because of the way I was raised, but if I wasnt frum those "issues" would definitely keep me away. Sad? maybe. True? Definitely.
 

I agree about helping the world and making it better. That's deffinately a mitzvah.
But why deprive your neshama of other good things like kosher and shabbos? Just like our body needs nurishment, our souls need nurishment too. And kosher food is spiritually healthier for us. Plus, when we follow the mitzvos, we bring positive spiritual energy to the world.
 

sharona, so why include the spiritual bank account into the equation? do these things because its the right thing to do and it brings positive energy to the world and it helps you grow and connect to g-d, not so you can accumulate brownie points..
 

True we should do it because it's the right thing to do and think of the reward second. I was just trying to make people aware that they control how much they earn in the next world. But you're right about doing it because it's right. Another good question is how do we know it's right? Because it's what G-d told us to do. And He knows best.
 

btw, thanks for the reply.
 

I was just trying to make people aware that they control how much they earn in the next world.

You seem like a nice person but when you say things like this, it sounds as if you perform mitzvot for selfish reasons.

I grew up in a house that did not keep kosher (but still, we never ate pork or shellfish). My grandparents kept kosher, so I observed the laws of kashrut when I was with them.

But honestly, eating kosher did not make me feel more Jewish or spiritual or that I was bringing more "positive energy to the earth." I feel that I bring "positive energy to the earth" by spending time and $$$ to help those in need -- to help humanity. (Repairing the world -- a Jewish concept). Whether something I eat is certified kosher or not is less important to me than the way I treat others and how I give back to humanity.
 

stacey how come spending time and $$$ helping people in need makes you feel more jewish than eating kosher food? they are both jewish concepts, coming from the same source, the torah.
helping poele can make you feel nicer, or more caring, or more humane, but why would it be more or less jewish than eating kosher if you dont consider the source?
 

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It's personal preference. For me it has less to do with the source and more to do with the result of my actions.

The food I consume (and the rules dictating such) is much less important and spiritual to me than helping someone in their time of need. Living a life of tzedakah and the attempt at tikkun olam is by far more important to me, personally, than keeping kosher.

If you deem the two to be equivalent, that is your choice, and there is nothing wrong with it. We are all entitled to our opinion.

But each of us is different and unique, so it stands to reason that each of us will find different levels spirituality and meaning in different aspects of our beautiful religion.
 

Now I see what I miss if I don't go back and check comments on a blog. Way to go Prag!!!
It seems like almost everything's been said already. As a BT I made the choice not to eat the chocolate (and I love chocolate).

Rav SR Hirsch actually discusses in the 19 Letters how we should judge Judaism and a frum life. He says we need to examine Yiddishkeit from "within" and not compare it to the outside world. Great posting!
 

I have watched a lot of friends and family go BT. As it happens I also have a number of friends who are FFB and have had many discussions with both groups about their choices.

I don't have an empty place inside me that requires me to go BT. I am not saying that everyone does, but it just so happens that many of the BTs I know did and needed the structure of a Torah observant life to feel good about themselves.

I don't. I can eat treif and not worry about whether Hashem is going to judge me as being less worthy than the FFB who never has.

The reality is that there is such a mix of minhagim along with halacha that it is not hard for those of us who aren't on the derech to sit back and watch comfortably.

I daven and I learn because I want to, not because I have to.

I suppose what I am saying is that if you think that just because someone is not Torah observant they are missing out, well you might be surprised that they aren't.

Don't know if this is making sense, but there it is.
 

Hi All, thanks for all your comments, I''m goign tor espond to each of you asap!
 

After reading all these back and forth comments.

The bottom line is...Have you established in your mind that the Torah is the absolute truth...or not?
Once you have..then I don't see how one can pick and choose.
It has nothing to do with structure..its the realization that our pieces of flesh that we call brains..cannot even hope to comprehend the Divine will

If you haven't established that , then Judaism is a lifestyle based and some ancient texts..that have some beautiful elements to them.
 

well i cant speak for other bt's but i know for me becoming religious was about one thing nd one thing only, what do i feel is the truth. it wasnt about wanting more structure or more rules (yuck!) it was just a matter of me questioning who am i, where do i come from, was i created, by who and why and wats my purpose in being created.. and from there i ended up in torah judaism. im sure all poeple ask these questions, and like stacey said, we each come to our own conclusions and views.. to me this seemed like the most intellectually and instinctively sincere.
and like david said, once i accepted the package, it wasnt up to me anymore to start picking and choosing
 

wow m00kie, you just brought an amazing memory back into my head. I once spent a shabbos with an african american ger tzedek and he said the same thing. that when he starting learning about judaism, it was like someone turned on a light switch. it was just clearly the emes.
 

it was just a matter of me questioning who am i, where do i come from, was i created, by who and why and wats my purpose in being created..im sure all poeple ask these questions, and like stacey said, we each come to our own conclusions and views...

Yes, I quite agree with you. I think we all have questioned our existence at some time or another.

I love being Jewish. I am so proud of our heritage, our decency, what we have brought to humanity and our moral conscience.

I have been blessed with some wonderful rabbis with whom I have studied during my life.

I am also a student of math and science. I have advanced degrees in both. And there is much in Orthodox Judaism that I take issue with, both from a scientific point of view and a social point of view (with regards to women).

I respect the right of any Jew to practice the denomination of Judaism that fits best for them. And I have found my place, for sure. I love the Jewish community of which I am an active part. My rabbi is brilliant and I never fail to learn from him and be moved by him. It is a great fit for me. Orthodox Judaism will never be my home. But I think it's great for those of you who have found peace and happiness there.
 

The bottom line is...Have you established in your mind that the Torah is the absolute truth...or not?


Nope, I don't believe that it is absolute truth throughout.
Once you have..then I don't see how one can pick and choose.
It has nothing to do with structure..its the realization that our pieces of flesh that we call brains..cannot even hope to comprehend the Divine will

If you want to argue that we cannot comprehend divine will than I can argue that various interpretations of Torah may not be the correct. I have read too many opinions by Chazal that contradict each other to see otherwise.

If you haven't established that , then Judaism is a lifestyle based and some ancient texts..that have some beautiful elements to them.

That is not entirely accurate either. A person can see Torah as being divinely inspired and as such it enables some picking and choosing. That may not be how some people wish to live, but it makes a lot of sense to many.
 

-
People choose different levels of observance, either doing all, or most, or some, or none.

Here's a good question for us Jews to ask.
Why follow the mitzvos of the Torah?

1. We took a vow at Mt. Sinai when Hashem revealed Himself to us there. And it's an everlasting vow.

2. Torah and mitzvos are nurishment for our soul and it helps us to connect to Hashem.

We might feel that doing a certain mitzvah is not so important. But they All are. For example, eating kosher might not seem like a big deal but it is because He told us to do it and also it's spiritually healthier for our soul. Every mitzvah both big and small are pathway to connect to Hashem and that's what our soul really wants and needs.
 

For example, eating kosher might not seem like a big deal but it is because He told us to do it and also it's spiritually healthier for our soul. Every mitzvah both big and small are pathway to connect to Hashem and that's what our soul really wants and needs.

With all due respect, it is quite presumptuous and completely inappropriate for you to tell me (or anyone else) what my soul "really wants and needs."

No one can know another's soul.

What you've said sounds like a sound-bite. I assume this is what is taught in Yeshiva.
 

Actually, I didn't go to yeshiva for highschool. I went to a different highschool. This is stuff I thought about by learning on my own.
 

Stacey-I didn't find the time to read what this all about, but is there a comment you neeed me to delete?
 

-
I'm sorry if I offended you about saying it's what our soul wants and needs.

My main point is that the reason why we Jews should keep the mitzvos is because, for one it's our obligation ever since we made that vow at Sinai, and also it connects us to Hashem. Plus, in regards to tikun olam, it's brings great energy into the world.
shalom
 

LVNSm-I think that most of the discussion transpired in a respectful manner.
Kol hakavod for your un-judgemental explanations.
 

Stacey-While it’s true that in general frum people think (want) all Jews to be religious, I can appreciate someone who chooses not to as well. From you blog I get the impression that you are good person and the Torah puts a lot of importance on that too.
If you’ve read some blogs around you’ll find that it’s not like that anymore.
Many frum people believe that conservative Jews are doing nothing wrong.
Clearly though in an ideal world from our point of view all Jews would be frum.

And I agree with what you stated about working to make the world we live in now a better place.
It’s wonderful to earn ‘cash’ for the next world but in the meantime we should not forget the people around us.


Rafi G-It’s hard to imagine what if, but the fact that we hesitate is a little worrying or a sign that it was bashert for all of us FFB bloggers..

Sharona-(your first comment) it’s a good statement but only applicable if you already believe that being frum is the way toe earn anything at all.


Lakewood-If you were secular and getting interested in becoming frum, I think the issues you have now would’ve been hided form you until it was ‘too late’ :)

Neil-it’s not me it’s the fascinating discussion going on here !

Jack-I’m somewhat confused are you a BT? A FFB? Still frum?

David-most people believe in the Torah, it’s the hundreds of extrapolated things that many have issue with.
 

was thinking about your question for a while (not the chocolate - lol - but the deeper meaning of it..though the chocolate's great too!)
I think ultimately - I'd be looking for meaning... and be drawn to sacrifice for it...
One does anyway -even those of us that are FFB
I like Mookie's response.. it was heartfelt..
anyway - just my two cents
 

I think chocolate is a sacred thing, and should be eaten with reverence.

...but then, I'm a pagan.

;)
 

Hey Prag- nice to see you again-

I think that you would be a BT- a Jewish neshama can't be kept in isolation too long- it has to come home- You'd do it- its in your genes.
 

Jack-I’m somewhat confused are you a BT? A FFB? Still frum?

I am none of the above. Just another Jewish Joe here in LA.
 

most people believe in the Torah, it’s the hundreds of extrapolated things that many have issue with

Prag, you are a wise man. This comment of yours sums it up precisely.
 

TOWIK-It’s a general sentiment and a comforting one; I’m starting to believe that I would’ve looked for more spirituality sooner or later.

Cat/Rebecca-Nice to see you again, I’ve been checking out your blogs but I saw no updates.
Everything ok?

Amishav-Shalom Aleichem!
I’m glad many people feel like that, it adds to my belief that perhaps I would’ve become a BT after all.

Jack- you mean a Jewish Jack, right?

Stacey-thanks I always appreciate a compliment :)
 

Ive often contemplated this... I'd like to believe yes but somehow I know it may not have been so.... Hey, guess what, we will never know!
 

I can show you my mohel's certificate for graduating a two hour session on how to conduct a bris. ;)
 

Whoa! I wish I'd checked back earlier.. What waves...
Prag - great post huh?
check it out - 71 comments!! 72 now...
and its not just the quantity.. the quality. congrats.
ill come back soon to comment.
 

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